A review from blog.allmovie.com
Last week I had the opportunity to sit down for a lengthy phone conversation with a husband-and-wife team who are arguably the two most legendary documentarians now working – Chris Hegedus and Donn Alan Pennebaker. We spoke at length of their wonderful recent film Kings of Pastry, which takes its stateside theatrical bow today – September 15, 2010. The documentary depicts events surrounding the pastry exam division of the 2007 “Meilleur Ouvrier de France” (MOF) event. During the discussion, Chris and Donn reflected on the movie’s production, its content, and its global reception. What follows is an edited and slightly abbreviated transcript of the whole interview. Those who haven’t yet seen the film should be aware that the following dialogue does contain key spoilers.
Nathan Southern: So I saw your film for the first time yesterday, it’s terrific. Congratulations!
D.A. Pennebaker: This is Kings of Pastry?
NS: Kings of Pastry, yes. I realize…
DP: (Laughs) We’ve had a couple of films around [since then], so…
NS: Yes, I realize it’s probably been a while since you shot [Kings]. When did you actually start shooting the film – was it in 2008?
Chris Hegedus: No, (laughs) we actually shot it in 2007!
NS: Oh, wow…
DP: These films are hard to cost out because they take a little longer than you think.
CH: And then we had to put it away, because we had committed to doing this kind of update of The War Room… which was The Return of the War Room. We did it for The Sundance Channel, and it was meant to… be an extra [on the] DVD of The War Room, which is going to be re-released shortly by Criterion…
NS: Wonderful.
CH: But anyway, so we took a little detour there, and then we really finished up [Kings of Pastry], and it actually has already broadcast throughout the world, starting almost a year ago…
DP and CH: Except for North America.
NS: So this is sort of a delayed release.
CH: (Laughs) A delayed reaction. And we’re so happy to finally…
DP: This is the way American documentaries aren’t supposed to work. (laughs) They start in Europe!
CH: Well, Europe was the biggest supporter, I have to say!
NS: How was the [overall] reception? You mentioned that the reception has been positive so far in Europe?
DP: Oh yeah, they love it!
CH: Yes, it was a terrific reception! And it actually played all over from Israel to Australia, so… we had a lot of interest there, and it was at the Berlin Film Festival, we had a fantastic screening there. I think it’s the screening that you want every film to be like, where we were part of this “culinary cinema”… that they started at the [Berlin] festival. So it was almost like our wedding party, where everybody from the screening had slightly more expensive tickets, and then they went to this beautiful Victorian tent, where they had first-class chefs, you know, cook the most delicious meal for everyone. So that was really a treat, so we had a really nice time with it in other places…
NS: What a perfect accompaniment to the film, huh?!
CH: It was! It was so great! And there were some really great pastry and chefs there… and they all sorts of wonderful desserts including little hand-outs afterward that were syringes of chocolate that you squirted or shot into your mouth. (laughs)
DP: And surprisingly, in France, that a couple of Yanks (laughs) had done a film on French cooking… it was a surprise that they even looked at it, much less that they ran it on the French channel there… And it got really good reviews.
NS: You seem to understand… certainly no surprise coming from two of your skill and background… But you seem to understand, and have such an emotional handle on, the world that you explore in this film. And so I was curious to know… As far as the actual inception of this project, it appears to be the specific kind of documentary film that feels borne out of personal experience…
DP: My years as a chef you mean? (laughs hard)
NS: I wasn’t even aware of that… do you have a background as a chef?
DP: (laughing) No, not at all! I just thought that was a funny idea.
CH: It was a little closer to my background…
DP: Yes, Chris is closer to it…
CH: My grandfather actually was a chef, he was a young chef in Germany who apprenticed with a baker, like many of these chefs in the film… and then he moved to New York and opened two… high-end pastry shops. So I did have this kind of pastry in my background… So… it was intriguing to me. But… like any of our films it came a little bit serendipitously as well, because our friend Flora Lazar decided to go to the French pastry school and told us about Jacquy [Pfeiffer] competing in this kind of a bizarre competition. So we were intrigued.
DP: And the school itself which is really unique and amazing, to be in the middle of Chicago!
NS: Sure. Well, it’s mentioned in the film… [Jacquy] mentions that it’s rather anomalous.
DP: Yeah.
NS: Existing where it does… Isn’t it the first post-collegiate institution in the U.S. devoted exclusively to French pastry?
DP and CH: Yeah! Yes, it is.
DP: They’re trying to do one in LA, but I don’t know how far they’ve gotten. One of the MOFs told me he was looking to promote it.
NS: That’s very exciting to see this happening.
DP: Well, you know, it doesn’t strike me as being peculiar, because it’s such a reasonable thing to do. Because if you go there, what you see is a lot of people having the best time! Finally creating something for themselves rather than being told what to do. You know, “Take this paper and file it,” or whatever. So, it’s a reasonable thing to want to take part in…
NS: So [just to recap], as far as the film itself, that came about through Flora’s suggestion… she told you about it, and you felt intrigued, and felt a personal connection based on your background?
CH: Yes, yes, that’s basically what it is, and… just, you know, you look for stories about people who are really passionate and jumping into something that they’re taking a life’s risk [on]… And definitely, Jacquy Pfeiffer was doing that… And it seemed fascinating because there was so much at stake for these chefs… And we were talking to his business partner Sebastian, he was telling us about how families practically got divorced over this process because it was so grueling and expensive for the chefs… They were mortgaging their houses and everything else, and it just seemed very different from any type of competition I had heard of before.
DP: And it had a kind of dramatic edge to it, because his partner [Sebastian] had already been in the competition and was wearing the [MOF] collar… So… it was a perilous situation, in a dramatic sense.
NS: Given the thrust of the film… you’re filming these people at very edgy, very emotionally revealing moments… For the purpose of the interview, I won’t reveal it to people who haven’t seen it, but… the catastrophe that strikes late in the film… and there’s a follow-up shot of the chef just completely dejected. You film him alone in a corner…Thinking about moments like that… And that’s the most extreme example. There are other moments in the film that feel very personal. It seems that it would be necessary for you to have a lot of preestablished trust, between yourselves and the three subjects… Did that just come naturally? How did you go about doing that?
CH: Well, you know, it’s hard… I mean, especially with the French chefs, because I mean, we didn’t really have very much time that we spent with them… So they just really had to trust us, and that was a difficult situation, but like in most situations when people are really involved in what they are doing… and are really focused on what they are doing, they don’t really pay that much attention to you… I mean, I’m sure they were aware that this was not the most wonderful thing to have filmed, but I think they were just totally focused on the disaster at hand that happened… And you know, what their life was going to look like ahead of this, when they were a failure… Which is a hard time for filmmakers because you know they don’t really want you around… At those points… But certainly it was more difficult with Jacquy because we had so much more of a relationship with him.
NS: But it sounds like, given the nature of the pressure at hand, you were able to do it inobtrusively.. and that’s certainly evident in the finished film. Was that your general feeling about it?
CH: Well, it was very restrictive… They were very worried that we would knock somebody over with our camera equipment. So… basically the rule was that after each day of the three days of shooting, they would kind of review if people wanted us back. And luckily they did, but by the third day, when people would be carrying all their sculptures and products to the display tables, they basically said, “You can stand in this three-foot square at the end of the table,” and that’s it. So we had no boom mikes, no radio mikes because they actually would throw off [the chefs’] very sensitive digital scales… So it was pretty minimal and restrictive. But you have to work with those things when you’re making a film.
NS: It sounds intense! And it never occurred to me, but I guess one would have to be careful in that environment given the fragility of the [sugar] sculptures for example, that the chefs are carrying around. You would be extremely limited as far as what you can do.
DP: Well, if you caused a disaster, they’d probably kill you there (laughing). You’d never come out of the place!
CH: They were definitely worried. I actually filmed Philippe [Rigollot] when his sculpture fell… and afterwards one of the chefs told me I should stop shooting him… Even though I wasn’t really near him at all… Just because he just didn’t want to worry him… Which, I did [stop shooting] for a little bit, but then one has to make the movie too!
NS: How did [Philippe] respond? Was he open to the idea of…
CH: (laughs) He wasn’t even looking at me… You know, he was so consumed with what he was doing that it didn’t really matter. It’s just that, you know, it just shows you how sensitive the other chefs were, in terms of the finalists… in terms of just wanting them to be able to have every opportunity possible… And I did appreciate that.
NS: That was one of the wonderful things about the film that comes out, especially in the last third, which is completely unexpected… the amount of not only camaraderie…
DP: Yeah…
NS: But in terms of the chefs who have already earned the collar… Reaching out to someone who desperately needs it at the worst possible moment. You see this level of compassion emerge, which is quite wonderful to see.
CH: I know. It was wonderful. And I think that’s what makes it very different from your normal cooking shows, where people are just like hoping some disaster happens, and not acting in supportive ways of the chefs that are competing in the shows. It’s just a different mentality.
NS: Logistically speaking… Did you have to jump through a number of hoops to…
DP: You mean to get in?
NS: Yes, to actually get permission to film.
DP: Well, we were there in the spring, and we were trying to contact people during August, which in France is famous because nobody picks up the phone!
NS: (laughing) Yes, that’s true.
DP: And so we kind of went there very hopeful but with nothing definite in-hand. And I think we spent a couple of weeks entreating them that we needed to go in… And they eventually let us in.
CH: Flora was our producer, and she helped expedite that process in some ways…. And so did Jacquy’s partner Sebastian, who was a MOF and knew some of the heads of the organization, and so we tried to have people advocating for us and you know, in the end, it worked…
NS: Presumably they were very familiar with your prior work, too…
CH: Actually, I don’t know how familiar they were! (laughs)
DP: I don’t think they had seen any of our films! I think we were completely unknown.
NS: I see.
CH: It’s funny, but… I don’t know… we did give them copies of Don’t Look Back and stuff, but I’m not sure if Dylan really meant that much to them, you know? So… I think they were really going on the reputation and suggestion of their fellow MOF…
NS: How long was the shoot, first of all?
CH: Well, we started shooting in July (2007)… we met Jacquy Pfeiffer at the French pastry school… We shot several times in August… and then in September, he went to Alsace… We actually went to a film festival in Russia, and then Flora and Penne and I all met Jacquy in Alsace… And continued from there. We met several other candidates and kept trying to get our access into the final event… It’s why, in some ways, we just shot it ourselves… Because we didn’t really have any funding for it, and it’s very hard to get funding for something that you don’t officially have access to… We basically just shot a little bit before we went to Alsace and started the competition.
NS: Did either or both of you experience a shift in understanding toward the subject, or maybe greater intimacy, as the shoot went forward? Or maybe as you filmed Jacquy? Did you feel like your understanding of that whole world deepened, or broadened, or changed at all?
DP: Well we found out a lot of things. But I think our relationship with Jacquy kind of remained very stable from the very beginning when we met him. We kind of liked each other, and it seemed like a good bet for a person to take through this kind of an adventure..
CH: But did we learn anything? Yeah, I learned an awful lot… You learn that pastry at that level, especially something like French pastry, which is very specific, and they’re building these huge sugar sculptures and chocolate sculptures… The type of knowledge that they have is really much more than just baking. It’s chemistry and engineering, and art, and Jacquy actually studied glass-blowing in order to do his sculpture. And so it was much more complex than I ever imagined it would be. And I really appreciated the idea of what this competition was about… That it was about celebrating and recognizing manual craft trades… In the same capacity as intellectual trades… I thought [that] was very important.
NS: It’s certainly unique… And [what you described] isn’t something that one would necessarily infer… Without having direct exposure to that kind of an environment.
CH: Yeah… you know, it’s something that I think should really be recognized more…
NS: One of the things overall that is surprising [is how] the documentary is made… in lieu of what one might assume [given the subject]… You think about the pastry baking, and some of the sugar sculptures that are being made… One could foresee, given this subject, a sort of step-by-step picture of what goes into these creations, and also maybe a broader logistical view of how the MOF event plays out… One of the things that’s surprising about your film is that it seems much more focused on the emotional journeys undertaken by these three chefs, Jacquy in particular, and another one of the chefs who experiences quite a turnaround at the end. To what extent do you agree with this assessment, and to what extent was this premeditated? I certainly think this makes it a deeper and more interesting film…
CH: Well, I mean, I think that’s why it’s very similar to a lot of our films… The War Room or many others… In that we’re interested in a person… And a person’s journey.. and the worlds can seem different, but I think the passion and work that goes behind whatever field they’re trying to excel in or make a difference in… That’s interchangeable somehow. And they are all very personal journeys that we’re interested in.
DP: The thing is… in a fiction film, usually it’s the writing and the acting and the directing that are singled out as showing character… of the film… But in these kinds of films [documentaries] what you’re really after is the character of the people you’re following. And it takes certain kinds of activities, certain kinds of things in their lives, for that to shine. And that’s what you’re always looking for. And the process of making anything… pastry, or whatever… producing a president … is beside the point, if the characters of the people you’re following are interesting.
NS: Was it difficult for you to narrow it down from 16 [competitors] to the 3 [chefs] you felt were most compelling?
CH: Well, we knew that Jacquy was going to be our main storyline, because, number one, Penne and I don’t speak French, which is what Flora helped us with a lot, and also we had filmed several other chefs, but in a story, you have to kind of narrow them down, and there were a lot of white men with receding hairlines… And white shirts on and white hats on. And it’s hard in a film to tell who’s who… So we decided to narrow it down to the three that would make our story work.
NS: Based on the distinctness of their looks?
CH: Yeah… Well, no, just that we couldn’t have too many characters in the story, so we narrowed them down to the ones that we did… But we also didn’t film a lot with a lot of chefs. It was kind of “scraping by” on this film in a certain way… But… luckily it works.
NS: Well, the film does feel most weighted toward Jacquy…
DP: From the beginning, I think that was our main pressure…
NS: One of the other things, too, that you draw out that’s so wonderful to see, and quite unexpected, actually, is the relationship between Jacquy and Rachel [his wife], which is so compelling… It’s sweet, and moving, and very compelling.. And it really seems to impart a lot of depth to the film, that relationship…
CH: I think we were lucky in some ways that the theme of the MOF was “wedding,” and we were able to have a twist to our film… that worked in some way to our advantage.
NS: The next MOF is still… because this one was in 2007… the next is still apparently a year away. So I suppose it’s too early to follow up on the individuals who got left out, who didn’t qualify in the first competition. But that aside, have you kept in touch with the chefs, both Jacquy and the other two you focus on… and if so how have they fared in the last several years?
CH: Well, Philippe Rigollot has gone on to open his own shop, I think… I haven’t had a lot of contact with many of the other chefs, recently… I think there was a little bit more contact when it was playing in Europe. But Jacquy is going to be coming to New York next week for the opening of the film, and… We’re really excited to see him. Our very first U.S. premiere was at the Full Frame Festival in North Carolina and Jacquy came down… for that, and he had a few hours between his flight and when the movie started, and he said, “Maybe I’ll build a chocolate sculpture…!” So he built this unbelievable chocolate sculpture. Somewhere in Chicago he found actual 35mm film reels and film, and he covered them somehow with chocolate, and was able to make… an actual film sculpture chocolate sculpture… that was about five feet tall, which we were able to display at the opening night party, there.
NS: That’s fantastic.
CH: It was fantastic. But that’s so typical of his personality. He’s really one of the most generous people that I know, and we were really fortunate, I think, to stumble across him not just for the film, but also for ourselves… in our lives…
NS: To be able to do that in time for the screening… and display such ingenuity on the spot, is remarkable.
CH: Yeah… I couldn’t believe it. I knew he was going to build something, but I had no idea until we got there. I actually filmed it, I’m going to make a little piece to put on our website. But… their school is so wonderful… I also did this one thing that was an outtake from the film… that they had from the French pastry school which was a chocolate fashion show… Which was both a benefit to fund kids’ tuitions going to this school, as well as to help some chefs that had a child in need. But it was just… a great event, because the creativity that went on was amazing between the chefs.
DP: All the clothes in the fashion show were chocolate…
NS: Were made out of chocolate?
DP: Believe it, yeah! And they were wonderful.
CH: Either chocolate or chocolate decorations. Some were actually totally chocolate, but a lot of them were decorated with chocolate in different ways.
NS: Fantastic!
CH: It’s wonderful! It’s actually on the Kings of Pastry website.
DP: Very dangerous for warm-breasted women! (laughing hard)
NS: It sounds just incredible to witness, visually.
DP: It was wild! We had a wonderful crowd to watch it [at the] reception…
NS: Probably a first, too… something that hadn’t been done…
DP: I don’t know. They come up with these ideas all the time there [at the French pastry school]. They’re very imaginative.
NS: Well, that’s evident in what they create in the film, too… The sculptures are just out of this world. I’ve never seen anything like them before.
CH: I know, they are beautiful, and I know there’s this one of the bijou sculptures that just always takes my breath away… where the chef somehow made one of those little snow globes… type of thing, with a swan inside of it, all made out of sugar!
DP: Totally made out of sugar. It’s like those things with Santa Claus and snow, and you shook them, that you used to get when you were little… But these were made completely of sugar… Sort of impossible to imagine how you could do it!
NS: I said to a colleague yesterday, watching that film, with the sculptures, especially… Is kind of like watching Wages of Fear… You’re constantly worried that one of the sculptures is going to break at any moment… and it’s incredible to think about what it must be like to be in that kind of a precarious position.. and to have everything resting on something like that.
CH: I know… it was a surprisingly tense thing to film. I was just really shaking by the end of it… Just half out of exhaustion, and the other half was just the vibes of everybody… Everybody was just so tense trying to get their stuff there on time, and there were just so many obstacles with humidity and time and everything else, that these chefs were up against in the film… And it’s just amazing…
NS: You mentioned the follow up to The War Room. What, that you feel comfortable discussing, lies ahead for you guys? What are you working on next – what’s next for you?
CH: Well, we’re not exactly sure what’s next. We’re definitely giving birth to this baby, which is a big job for an independent film distributor… just to do an independent documentary theatrical release is just a huge amount of work.
NS: Are you speaking of the pastry film?
CH: The pastry film, yes. But other than that, we shot a little film in the spring, on a band called The National… and… I think we may do a project next on Stephen Sondheim, but we’re working out the details.
NS: Wonderful. That will be fantastic. Well, you’re both brilliant, and thank you so much… not simply for this interview, but for what you’ve both given cinematically, I just think about how rich your legacies are… not only The War Room and Don’t Look Back, but all the films you’ve made have really been just spectacular…
DP: Well, thank you!
CH: Thank you, so much!
NS: It’s a pleasure. And best wishes on the pastry film.
CH: Thank you, and we really appreciate your interest in getting the word out.
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